Curse

Cuilan · Mar 20, 2012, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Otherworldly things always turn out to be not so otherworldly. I guess things aren't seen that way by religious. I didn't include anything about lore in my first post and I can understand how lore can add to fun, but if it gets in the way of fun I don't even care if there's a mask or not. Just let players walk over it.

Dewshine Wildclaw · Mar 20, 2012, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Soo, you don't like wurms. But you already did vanquishing and such.... then why? Just go somewhere else to get LB points or whatever makes you go there again. Just wondering here. Why let yourself get so bothered by something you have already reached the point where you can easily avoid it?
Unless you are intend to get more than one GWAMM character, you wont need to set food there ever again for other than completion of the campaign, which you would still need to do even with your suggestion... so why?

I keep to if added it should be in beyond and with a good lore explanation. Lore has everything to do with it, like it or not. If Anet does something akin to this in beyond with a good explanation I wont mind.

Mouse at Large · Mar 20, 2012, 03:02 PM // 15:02

/signed

I'm a wurm hater as well and would welcome an NPC that could give you immunity to the sulphur. Call it "Joko's Blessing" or something and make it available after completion of NF. For those who like wurms, they can still hop into a spoor if they want

Andemius · Mar 20, 2012, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewshine Wildclaw

Soo, you don't like wurms. But you already did vanquishing and such.... then why? Just go somewhere else to get LB points or whatever makes you go there again. Just wondering here. Why let yourself get so bothered by something you have already reached the point where you can easily avoid it?
Unless you are intend to get more than one GWAMM character, you wont need to set food there ever again for other than completion of the campaign, which you would still need to do even with your suggestion... so why?

I keep to if added it should be in beyond and with a good lore explanation. Lore has everything to do with it, like it or not. If Anet does something akin to this in beyond with a good explanation I wont mind.

So by that logic I ought not to comment on the recent "remove charm animal for PvP" thread, because I don't use beastmaster rangers anymore, but have done at some point.

Blanace and Player Enjoyment should come before Lore. I have suggested a "lore reason" for my suggestion, yet I don't see anyone who is moaning that the lore won't be good doing so. Lets hear some form you.

Xiner · Mar 20, 2012, 06:22 PM // 18:22

If there's one thing I hated about NF it's the wurms. Before completing NF I'd say: okay, keep them in, just to keep the lore in the story. But as soon as you finished it and want to to other stuff like VQ's it's a pain IMO.

Sure, it's only 5 areas to VQ. But the areas where the wurms are necassary are the worst VQ's in NF ever in my opinion. There is a part in Joko's Domain where there are like 3 or even more groups of awakened walking very close to eachothers aggro. I am having quite some trouble with those IN the wurms while i did vq's. (And please keep your comments with saying those are easy) I've had trouble with them doing it with wurms I'm nearly sure that my heroes WITHOUT wurms eat these groups like pie. But those wurms made it annoying and boring. I mean tbh I don't give a shit about lore when I did VQ's. I mean VQ'ing doesn't have anything to do with lore right? Except that you are visiting areas which were part of lore.

/signed to add some blessing after completing NF.
OR:
/signed to change the wurms in some way. Just give them more interesting skills or make playing them more interesting.

Dewshine Wildclaw · Mar 20, 2012, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andemius

So by that logic I ought not to comment on the recent "remove charm animal for PvP" thread, because I don't use beastmaster rangers anymore, but have done at some point.

Blanace and Player Enjoyment should come before Lore. I have suggested a "lore reason" for my suggestion, yet I don't see anyone who is moaning that the lore won't be good doing so. Lets hear some form you.

I was asking a valid question I think... not judging you...
I don't enjoy farming, I don't farm.
I don't enjoy speed clears, I don't join them.
I don't enjoy the bonus mission pack, I never completed it (this despite being a completionist and interested in the lore from it).
I did not enjoy the punchout dungeon, never done it since I completed it once in nm and hm.
Sorry but it seems pretty simple to me.

Btw if you read my posts more carefully you will notice I am not really 100% against you, but somewhat neutral. I even suggested/agreed to it if added with something akin to beyond. So I don't understand why you would rage at me.

Andemius · Mar 20, 2012, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewshine Wildclaw

I was asking a valid question I think... not judging you...
I don't enjoy farming, I don't farm.
I don't enjoy speed clears, I don't join them.
I don't enjoy the bonus mission pack, I never completed it (this despite being a completionist and interested in the lore from it).
I did not enjoy the punchout dungeon, never done it since I completed it once in nm and hm.
Sorry but it seems pretty simple to me.

Btw if you read my posts more carefully you will notice I am not really 100% against you, but somewhat neutral. I even suggested/agreed to it if added with something akin to beyond. So I don't understand why you would rage at me.

I have read your posts and previously I did note you said your opinion was neutral. However, posting why I would want this if I have already done it is an irrelevant question. 90% of suggestions are by people who have already done the thing they want changed.

I don't see why I ought to be made to exclude myself from the desolation areas just because I don't like Wurms, hence, I have already done them, but think a change is in order.

Cuilan · Mar 20, 2012, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewshine Wildclaw

Soo, you don't like wurms. But you already did vanquishing and such.... then why?

There are other people who are new or returning to the game and those who have several characters who haven't finished every area of the game. I think this is obvious.

Dewshine Wildclaw · Mar 20, 2012, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Alright alright, I stand corrected. I was wondering and I got my answer

I still believe the best solution is to add it in with beyond, or even just 1 or 2 quests if a full on chapter of beyond is not going to happen there, that you can do after completing nightfall (hence not for the completion of nightfall itself)
That gives room to give us a reason that fits within lore, a bit of new content and hopefully make everyone happy.

Trixxy · Mar 23, 2012, 08:03 PM // 20:03

/not signed

People who have a problem with the Junundu wurms should read the skill descriptions, play smarter, and use Junundu Feast more. Used correctly, a Junundu party is seriously powerful.

Not to mention it would totaly mess with the NF desolation lore.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewshine Wildclaw

I still believe the best solution is to add it in with beyond, or even just 1 or 2 quests if a full on chapter of beyond is not going to happen there, that you can do after completing nightfall (hence not for the completion of nightfall itself)
That gives room to give us a reason that fits within lore, a bit of new content and hopefully make everyone happy.

Mmhmm... could work. Perhaps the charr or asura could invent some tactical masks that enable mortals to survive extended periods of exposure to the sulphurous sands. Environmental suit disguises for a handfull of future Beyond content maybe?

I'd like that.

But yes, for the NF campaign, exploration of and vanquishing of regular NF lets keep the wurms, just for the sake of that "oh snap!" moment when you get into a Junundu for the first time.

I think part of the reason for why people develop junundu hate is because they're not use playing dynamically since they spend most of the time c-space-facerolling with their PvXQQway hero set ups and start failing as soon as any real thought is required.

DRGN · Mar 23, 2012, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trixxy

/not signed

People who have a problem with the Junundu wurms should read the skill descriptions, play smarter, and use Junundu Feast more. Used correctly, a Junundu party is seriously powerful.

The problem isn't that Junundu are hard; they're a joke. It's that they're boring as all shit, extremely repetitive, the risk of failure is almost as close to zero as you can possibly get.

I also like the "read skill descriptions" argument when 99% of the time you're going with heroes who can't use Junundu even remotely close to their full potential.

Quote:

I think part of the reason for why people develop junundu hate is because they're not use playing dynamically since they spend most of the time c-space-facerolling with their PvXQQway hero set ups and start failing as soon as any real thought is required.

Are you saying that being able to quadruple pull mobs in HM and then go afk to the restroom while your heroes die ten thousand times but eventually finish, despite being horrible, because they have a 100% health AoE hard res to win a war of attrition is "thought"? I'm sorry, playing Go Fish takes more thought than Junundu do, and that's part of the problem.

This whole "You don't like to play the game the same way as I do, you must be a fail player and I'm going to stick my head up my ass and insult everyone" attitude is getting really, really old. Some people don't like the Junundu because they feel they're poorly designed, they don't like being shoehorned into one skillbar that their heroes don't use well, the DP their cause is not particularly suited for vanquishing(like pretty much anything else in the game since it was a pretty obvious afterthought) and they don't like their heroes randomly popping out of Junundu and dying in an unressable spot. Instead of telling people to lrn2play, maybe you need do some of that thinking that the Junundu don't require "Hmm, maybe there's more than one reason someone wouldn't want to use this."

Trixxy · Mar 24, 2012, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Are you saying that being able to quadruple pull mobs in HM and then go afk to the restroom while your heroes die ten thousand times but eventually finish, despite being horrible, because they have a 100% health AoE hard res to win a war of attrition is "thought"?

... heroes don't use well, the DP their[sic] cause is[sic] not particularly suited for vanquishing

I just find it interesting that you find junundu brainless yet you still pick up DP while using them. Maybe you shouldn't afk after throwing heroes into 3-4 mobs. Just a suggestion

And no, I don't set out to insult anyone. Truth is Truth and sometimes it sucks, but its better to know and improve then ignore and fail. You can PM me if you want DRGN. Lets not digress from the thread too much.

Gli · Mar 24, 2012, 01:18 AM // 01:18

But that's the only way to play with them that's borderline tolerable...

DRGN · Mar 24, 2012, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trixxy

I just find it interesting that you find junundu brainless yet you still pick up DP while using them. Maybe you shouldn't afk after throwing heroes into 3-4 mobs. Just a suggestion

The fact that heroes can die over and over and still do fine was the part of the reason why I said they were brainless. Witty replies work better when you actually comprehend what you're replying to.

Again, the concern here isn't for me, it's my heroes. They know how to use Junundu Feast to take away my chance at Blinding Breath and that's basically the ONLY thing they do well with Junundu. What do you expect when you combine bad AI, lack of any reliable healing, and significantly reduced armor that puts a nice big dent in the extra health? Hell, don't you think that's WHY they made Junundu Wail they way they did? At least they had that foresight.

If you want to teach my heroes how to properly use their Junundu, then by all means do so. But if I'm going to perform 100 apm to make my heroes not be god awful, then I'm just going to go play an RTS.

Maybe I'm being overly abrasive, but it's hard to be civil with someone who comes in and shits all over a bunch of the player base and makes a bunch of baseless generalizations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

But that's the only way to play with them that's borderline tolerable...

There's also this.

Trixxy · Mar 24, 2012, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

If you want to teach my heroes how to properly use their Junundu, then by all means do so. But if I'm going to perform 100 apm to make my heroes not be god awful, then I'm just going to go play an RTS.

By all means if you're not good with junundu and can't bother to get good with junundu then go. Go play a RTS.

If you want to learn how to play better, or just call me an "elitist-know-it-all-%^$#" you're welcome to PM me (mind you I'd just ignore it if its regarding the latter).

Lets not digress too much from the thread here.

Andemius · Mar 24, 2012, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trixxy

By all means if you're not good with junundu and can't bother to get good with junundu then go. Go play a RTS.

If you want to learn how to play better, or just call me an "elitist-know-it-all-%^$#" you're welcome to PM me (mind you I'd just ignore it if its regarding the latter).

Lets not digress too much from the thread here.

That is the issue we have here, and part of the base of my suggestion. Heroes suck at using these bars. Whether you have a good time using them or feel that you do well with them, the Hero AI for using Wurms sucks. If it did not I would not feel any need to make a suggestion to allow people to use their heroes.

Whether you are a fan of Wurms or not you cannot dismiss the miserable AI usage of them.

Gli · Mar 24, 2012, 10:07 AM // 10:07

I think it's safe to say that there are several different reasons mentioned here why people want to get rid of the wurms.

Speaking for myself, they just bore me to tears. My desire to play GW drops to near zero as soon as I hear the rumble of their movement. It would be more tolerable if they hadn't overdone it. Six explorables, a storyline mission and a challenge mission, that's just an insane amount of content to tie to a gimmick. Imagine if they'd designed the entire Charr Homelands region of EotN as a dwarven boxing areas, boy, what fun that would be.

Trixxy · Mar 24, 2012, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andemius

That is the issue we have here, and part of the base of my suggestion. Heroes suck at using these bars. Whether you have a good time using them or feel that you do well with them, the Hero AI for using Wurms sucks. If it did not I would not feel any need to make a suggestion to allow people to use their heroes.

Whether you are a fan of Wurms or not you cannot dismiss the miserable AI usage of them.

As for hero AI, there's no excuse. Observe your heroes behaviour and take countermeasures against the shortcomings in the hero AI. All you might need to do is use a flag to get them out of a nuke zone or flag them out of enemy range to let them heal up with Junundu Wail or ctrl-call a target every now and then. If you must, open up their skill bars and take even more control for select moments. Real players do these things in live parties so its only logical that the players use the hero control tools to emulate the same.

Anet has given us control of heroes and henchman for a reason therefore we can't whine and moan at Anet to change things in the AI where the issues are born in the carelessness of the players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Speaking for myself, they just bore me to tears.

Thats the only reasonable argument against the wurms. They do feel that they drag a bit. The endless rumbling does come to mind.

DRGN · Mar 24, 2012, 01:03 PM // 13:03

That's...that's the point I've been trying to make this whole time, though just for additional reasons on top of what Gli has been saying.

I thought this forum used to have a "Beating head on wall" smiley. I think that must be another forum I'm thinking of

Andemius · Mar 25, 2012, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trixxy

As for hero AI, there's no excuse. Observe your heroes behaviour and take countermeasures against the shortcomings in the hero AI. All you might need to do is use a flag to get them out of a nuke zone or flag them out of enemy range to let them heal up with Junundu Wail or ctrl-call a target every now and then. If you must, open up their skill bars and take even more control for select moments. Real players do these things in live parties so its only logical that the players use the hero control tools to emulate the same.

Anet has given us control of heroes and henchman for a reason therefore we can't whine and moan at Anet to change things in the AI where the issues are born in the carelessness of the players.

Hang on, supposedly we just had a Hero AI update. If they used all the skills on their bar properly, I woudldn't mind. However, I only ever see my heroes using maybe 4-5 of the skills the Wurms have.

I can't open every heroes panel and micro all their skills, that would make using them even worse. Also, there wouldn't be a need to flag them around AoE if their armor rating didn't suck. 3000hp but less armor than a normal player? These things are supposed to be tanks.